Some Interesting Correspondence
NguyenKha PhamThanh Chuong wrote a good article last week that was published on LewRockwell.com. He's a Vietnamese expat who lives in Austrailia, and he's been an advocate and activist for liberty and peace for more than 25 years. He's returned to Vietnam several times since he originally left in 1983. He lived there for two years in the late 90's but was expelled from the country in 1997 for anti-government activities.
Those of you who know me know of my intense interest in Asia, particularly Vietnam; it's people, language, food, history and politics. I was both surprised and exicted when I saw his article and decided to email him about it. He was gracious enough to reply and we had an interesting conversation about why liberty suceeds and fails, particularly with regards to poor and developing countries. I've reproduced our correspondence in its entirey below. He made some great points that I hadn't previously thought about and I think it is worth reading what he had to say. (I put his comments in italics while leaving mine in normal font.)
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I read your article today on LewRockwell.com and really enjoyed it. I liked how you applied your own experience during the war to what the Iraqis must be feeling now. Even though I'm an American, I love Vietnam. As soon as I saw your name on the article list I was excited because I've never met a Vietnamese person with a libertarian perspective before. I lived in the Seattle area for several years and learned to speak Vietnamese. I fell in love with the culture, people and food. I've talked to Vietnamese people all over the U.S. and in Vietnam itself but I have yet to meet any who know much about politics or international world events. I'm learning Mandarin now as well and hope to do business in China and Southeast Asia after I graduate. It's truly a tragedy what government has done to that part of the world, but at the same time it's great that they are slowly gaining some freedom. Thanks again for your article and keep up the good work.
Aaron Singleton
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Dear Aaron Singleton,
Thank you for sharing with me your experience with my people. What can I say? You said " I've talked to Vietnamese people all over the U.S. and in Vietnam itself but I have yet to meet any who know much about politics or international world events. " That explains why we have been colonized by both outsiders and turncoat tyrants. Let alone the fact that that made them become easily manipulated politically. Put it in a civil society context, in a more sophisticated analysis, these Vietnamericans not only not contribute to the liberty but also ruin it. Thus as you also said "but at the same time it's great that they are slowly gaining some freedom" I am afraid that you may make some mistakes here. As the way I see it, GAINING SOME FREEDOM means you have fought for that with knowledge, understanding of Liberty. What they, my people have now is a controlled relax that granted by the PG. Not Freedom itself my friend. Please go there my friend, experience life over there, and hopefully when you come back you would see why I am now terrified by the silence of many people in the world, especially in the USA. Good luck my friend.
PT Chuong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PT Choung,
Thanks for your reply. I agree that freedom needs to be fought for and earned, but the conditions for such an uprising have to be right in order for it to occur. I think the reason that Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Say China for instance, have historically been prone to tyranny, and the reason why even now they are languishing in it, is poverty. When people are poor, they care only about getting food for the next day. It's hard to care about political freedom when you can't even feed your family. Not only that, but this poverty makes them susceptible to tyrants who claim they can eradicate poverty through totalitarian means. It also begets ignorance because people don't have the means to educate themselves. What people desire above all is economic freedom. This is the kind of freedom that is now growing in China and Vietnam. It is a trend I believe will continue, because in order to stay in power and avoid a popular uprising, the tyrants who rule these countries understand they must allow their economies to grow and their people to make money.
However, this kind of pacification will only work for so long. As this freedom grows and people become wealthier, they begin to desire other kinds of freedom. A rising standard of living in these countries will, almost certainly, result in mass movements toward democracy and more political liberty. Although I'm no fan of democracy either, I think it is a step in the right direction for them. This is why I have a more optimistic viewpoint with regards to the future of East and South East Asia. As long as the current growth trends continue and people are allowed to own property and make money, eventually they will reach the point where the masses will cease to be content with their current situation and will demand better. I agree that it is frustrating that this has not yet occurred and that it is taking so long, however I do see a light at the end of the tunnel. I think the real threats to liberty lie in the workings of the supposedly "free" Western governments, especially the United States. I think they are undermining international, political and economic stability to such an alarming extent that liberalism as we know it could be completely destroyed worldwide. Thanks again for your reply. It was good hearing from you.
Aaron Singleton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Aaron Singleton,
I am very happy that you take your time to give me a very thoughtful reply. You seem to study a lot about Asian countries.
However, as an activist for liberty and peace for more than 25 years in Vietnamese cirumstance, I would beg to be different on some points. You observed that: ”When people are poor, they care only about getting food for the next day. It’s hard to care about political freedom when you can't even feed your family." This is what many people ,Westerner experts and even Vietnamese anti-communist exiles misunderstand.(They have had many theories for VN since 1975, and many theories for China since Mao death, and what now?)
Just ask the question: when my people gather to expel the French, were they rich? When south Africans fought and dismantled the white supremacy, were they rich? More importantly, those people are now rich they don’t even care about political freedom at all, in fact they defend and protect the regime more than the cadres themselves. Apart from the time I was living there as a young activist, since I left in 1983, I have been back 4 times since 1997, lived there for more than 2 years. I know this first hand. Those people revolted against the Government in Thai Binh Province in 1998-2000 are not rich. The young, Ex-communist soldier NguyenKhacToan is not rich. The young ex-staff writer for the Party Magazine , NguyenVu Binh is not rich, yet they revolt against the Party and demand freedom, and do not compromise even though the Party has promised them if they change their stands, they would be released.
What about the Singaporeans? They are very rich. And look at South Koreans; they took back their freedom and democracy when they were poorer than the Singaporeans. What about Hongkongese.. Why did they not demand democracy and dignity when they were under the Brits? Even now under the Communist? Are they poor? My answer is they DONOT “KNOW” LIBERTY as long as they can make money, they bow.
What is missing in VietNam and China or many Asian societies, or in fact in any society? People must find out and understand what they do not have,( or lost) then love it, value it, treasure it then they will demand it, and fight for it no matter they are poor or rich. Look at your society and Australian’s now. How many people actually are demanding back what the Government has taken from them? Why? Are they poor?
My answer is that it is FEAR. We must take fear out of them. In order to do so, first they must understand their own dignity and liberty, and love these so much that they have no other fear than having none of them. Look at those people who support Aung SanSuu Kyi, are they rich? They got the election, then were robbed and what now? Why? FEAR my friend. What If they throw away their fear as Indonesian did? As south Koreeans did, I leave all the rest for you to put into practice in America with people around you, my friend.
“I think the real threats to liberty lie in the workings of the supposedly "free" Western governments, especially the United States. I think they are undermining international, political and economic stability to such an alarming extent that liberalism as we know it could be completely destroyed worldwide.” I could not agree more.. Many dictatorship, totalitarian regimes now take the USA, Australia, the UK as example to justify and legitimize their “iron fist”. But again, as Americans are not poor, they have freedom of economics, better “education” the question you must ask, , is why they let things go this far? How many Americans can see and say as you do? Why?
Yours sincerely
NguyenKha PhamThanh Chuong
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks again for another quick reply. I pretty much agree with everything you said. Poverty alone is not a sufficient explanation, and as you noted, there are many examples of people in abject poverty rising up and overthrowing their masters. However most of these uprisings were not the product of a love of liberty in the pure sense of the phrase. If I am not mistaken, the Vietnamese rebellion and subsequent defeat of the French at Dien Bien Phu was a nationalistic movement with the goal of freeing Vietnam from foreign rule. What we call the Vietnam War was an interesting example of a people fighting for freedom from foreign oppression, but doing so under the control of what would become an even more repressive domestic regime. These people did not truly understand liberty. They fought for many different reasons and the result at first was victory, which then led to further oppression.
The ironic thing about all of the revolts you mentioned and many others is that they resulted not in liberty, (at least not for any significant length of time,) but merely in a different form of tyranny. Even if the people of Vietnam or China were to rise up today and overthrow their respective communist rulers, the end result would most likely not be libertarian in nature. They would probably institute some form of democratic rule which would in short time result in a western-style welfare state with all of the heavy tax burdens and creeping socialism we see in the West.
Not only is poverty not a good explanation, as you explained, but wealth may also be a hindrance to the advancement of liberty. If people possess wealth they have more to lose. It seems logical that if people stand to lose much in order to revolt, they will be less likely to do so. In this sense, the poor may be more willing to revolt since they have so little to lose. What then determines why and when a people decide to revolt against their oppressors?
I think you were correct when you said: "People must find out and understand what they do not have, (or lost) then love it, value it, treasure it then they will demand it, and fight for it no matter they are poor or rich." A true understanding and love of the concept of liberty does produce an unyielding, unconquerable spirit, much like that present in the early American revolutionaries. Colonial America was already one of the freest places in the world, but the colonists were so endowed with the spirit of liberty that they could not tolerate even comparatively small forms of oppression. This was a unique and rare occurrence in the history of the world, and even there, the experiment they started has progressed rather quickly into the depths of tyranny. There is no guarantee that the original conditions present during the revolution can be duplicated even if a true understanding of liberty could be spread to the population at large, but hopefully it can.
The communists succeeded in mass revolutions against formidable odds, mainly due to their success at propagandizing and using guerilla tactics to undermine their enemies. Advocates of liberty could theoretically use these same tactics to try and undermine oppressive states. It yet remains to be seen if this can be effective. I think technology provides perhaps the best reason to be optimistic. The Internet, advanced encryption and worldwide communication capabilities are proving to be thorns in the side of the authoritarian state. Perhaps as a result we'll see the cause of liberty advance like never before. Who knows. The fight will continue to be interesting at the very least. I'm glad we’re both on the same side. Thanks for your correspondence.
Sincerely,
Aaron Singleton
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Aaron Singleton,
It's more than a pleasure to talk to you, my friend.
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts,
Yes, you are absolutely right, and that is exactly what I mean..
"However most of these uprisings were not the product of a love of liberty in the pure sense of the phrase. If I am not mistaken, the Vietnamese rebellion and subsequent defeat of the French at Dien Bien Phu was a nationalistic movement with the goal of freeing Vietnam from foreign rule. What we call the Vietnam war was an interesting example of a people fighting for freedom from foreign oppression, but doing so under the control of what would become an even more repressive domestic regime. These people did not truly understand liberty. They fought for many different reasons and the result at first was victory, which then led to further oppression."
-but because of by their own people, therefore they don’t feel "lost” or “humiliated”, because they don’t know or understand liberty, democracy.
The people of Vietnam fought the Chinese, the French etc.. NOT FOR LIBERTY; they did not know and understand LIBERTY… they just fought for their dignity in their Independence as a people. They are proud of, love and treasure being a distinguished Vietnamese people that's all. And that explains it my friend. Many people, including those who are now living UNDER and WITH LIBERY, DEMOCRACY… they DO NOT KNOW and FATHOM these CONCEPTS…Therefore, you see when Governments give they take...and when governments take they give.
That is what I am doing now for Vietnamese people. I am just giving them what they miss: do everything to inform them with the HOPE that they will understand the real dignity in liberty, then love liberty, love democracy and will STAND UP and DEMAND and FIGHT for it.
Take care
Sincerely,
NguyenKha PhamThanh Chuong
Those of you who know me know of my intense interest in Asia, particularly Vietnam; it's people, language, food, history and politics. I was both surprised and exicted when I saw his article and decided to email him about it. He was gracious enough to reply and we had an interesting conversation about why liberty suceeds and fails, particularly with regards to poor and developing countries. I've reproduced our correspondence in its entirey below. He made some great points that I hadn't previously thought about and I think it is worth reading what he had to say. (I put his comments in italics while leaving mine in normal font.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read your article today on LewRockwell.com and really enjoyed it. I liked how you applied your own experience during the war to what the Iraqis must be feeling now. Even though I'm an American, I love Vietnam. As soon as I saw your name on the article list I was excited because I've never met a Vietnamese person with a libertarian perspective before. I lived in the Seattle area for several years and learned to speak Vietnamese. I fell in love with the culture, people and food. I've talked to Vietnamese people all over the U.S. and in Vietnam itself but I have yet to meet any who know much about politics or international world events. I'm learning Mandarin now as well and hope to do business in China and Southeast Asia after I graduate. It's truly a tragedy what government has done to that part of the world, but at the same time it's great that they are slowly gaining some freedom. Thanks again for your article and keep up the good work.
Aaron Singleton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Aaron Singleton,
Thank you for sharing with me your experience with my people. What can I say? You said " I've talked to Vietnamese people all over the U.S. and in Vietnam itself but I have yet to meet any who know much about politics or international world events. " That explains why we have been colonized by both outsiders and turncoat tyrants. Let alone the fact that that made them become easily manipulated politically. Put it in a civil society context, in a more sophisticated analysis, these Vietnamericans not only not contribute to the liberty but also ruin it. Thus as you also said "but at the same time it's great that they are slowly gaining some freedom" I am afraid that you may make some mistakes here. As the way I see it, GAINING SOME FREEDOM means you have fought for that with knowledge, understanding of Liberty. What they, my people have now is a controlled relax that granted by the PG. Not Freedom itself my friend. Please go there my friend, experience life over there, and hopefully when you come back you would see why I am now terrified by the silence of many people in the world, especially in the USA. Good luck my friend.
PT Chuong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PT Choung,
Thanks for your reply. I agree that freedom needs to be fought for and earned, but the conditions for such an uprising have to be right in order for it to occur. I think the reason that Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Say China for instance, have historically been prone to tyranny, and the reason why even now they are languishing in it, is poverty. When people are poor, they care only about getting food for the next day. It's hard to care about political freedom when you can't even feed your family. Not only that, but this poverty makes them susceptible to tyrants who claim they can eradicate poverty through totalitarian means. It also begets ignorance because people don't have the means to educate themselves. What people desire above all is economic freedom. This is the kind of freedom that is now growing in China and Vietnam. It is a trend I believe will continue, because in order to stay in power and avoid a popular uprising, the tyrants who rule these countries understand they must allow their economies to grow and their people to make money.
However, this kind of pacification will only work for so long. As this freedom grows and people become wealthier, they begin to desire other kinds of freedom. A rising standard of living in these countries will, almost certainly, result in mass movements toward democracy and more political liberty. Although I'm no fan of democracy either, I think it is a step in the right direction for them. This is why I have a more optimistic viewpoint with regards to the future of East and South East Asia. As long as the current growth trends continue and people are allowed to own property and make money, eventually they will reach the point where the masses will cease to be content with their current situation and will demand better. I agree that it is frustrating that this has not yet occurred and that it is taking so long, however I do see a light at the end of the tunnel. I think the real threats to liberty lie in the workings of the supposedly "free" Western governments, especially the United States. I think they are undermining international, political and economic stability to such an alarming extent that liberalism as we know it could be completely destroyed worldwide. Thanks again for your reply. It was good hearing from you.
Aaron Singleton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Aaron Singleton,
I am very happy that you take your time to give me a very thoughtful reply. You seem to study a lot about Asian countries.
However, as an activist for liberty and peace for more than 25 years in Vietnamese cirumstance, I would beg to be different on some points. You observed that: ”When people are poor, they care only about getting food for the next day. It’s hard to care about political freedom when you can't even feed your family." This is what many people ,Westerner experts and even Vietnamese anti-communist exiles misunderstand.(They have had many theories for VN since 1975, and many theories for China since Mao death, and what now?)
Just ask the question: when my people gather to expel the French, were they rich? When south Africans fought and dismantled the white supremacy, were they rich? More importantly, those people are now rich they don’t even care about political freedom at all, in fact they defend and protect the regime more than the cadres themselves. Apart from the time I was living there as a young activist, since I left in 1983, I have been back 4 times since 1997, lived there for more than 2 years. I know this first hand. Those people revolted against the Government in Thai Binh Province in 1998-2000 are not rich. The young, Ex-communist soldier NguyenKhacToan is not rich. The young ex-staff writer for the Party Magazine , NguyenVu Binh is not rich, yet they revolt against the Party and demand freedom, and do not compromise even though the Party has promised them if they change their stands, they would be released.
What about the Singaporeans? They are very rich. And look at South Koreans; they took back their freedom and democracy when they were poorer than the Singaporeans. What about Hongkongese.. Why did they not demand democracy and dignity when they were under the Brits? Even now under the Communist? Are they poor? My answer is they DONOT “KNOW” LIBERTY as long as they can make money, they bow.
What is missing in VietNam and China or many Asian societies, or in fact in any society? People must find out and understand what they do not have,( or lost) then love it, value it, treasure it then they will demand it, and fight for it no matter they are poor or rich. Look at your society and Australian’s now. How many people actually are demanding back what the Government has taken from them? Why? Are they poor?
My answer is that it is FEAR. We must take fear out of them. In order to do so, first they must understand their own dignity and liberty, and love these so much that they have no other fear than having none of them. Look at those people who support Aung SanSuu Kyi, are they rich? They got the election, then were robbed and what now? Why? FEAR my friend. What If they throw away their fear as Indonesian did? As south Koreeans did, I leave all the rest for you to put into practice in America with people around you, my friend.
“I think the real threats to liberty lie in the workings of the supposedly "free" Western governments, especially the United States. I think they are undermining international, political and economic stability to such an alarming extent that liberalism as we know it could be completely destroyed worldwide.” I could not agree more.. Many dictatorship, totalitarian regimes now take the USA, Australia, the UK as example to justify and legitimize their “iron fist”. But again, as Americans are not poor, they have freedom of economics, better “education” the question you must ask, , is why they let things go this far? How many Americans can see and say as you do? Why?
Yours sincerely
NguyenKha PhamThanh Chuong
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks again for another quick reply. I pretty much agree with everything you said. Poverty alone is not a sufficient explanation, and as you noted, there are many examples of people in abject poverty rising up and overthrowing their masters. However most of these uprisings were not the product of a love of liberty in the pure sense of the phrase. If I am not mistaken, the Vietnamese rebellion and subsequent defeat of the French at Dien Bien Phu was a nationalistic movement with the goal of freeing Vietnam from foreign rule. What we call the Vietnam War was an interesting example of a people fighting for freedom from foreign oppression, but doing so under the control of what would become an even more repressive domestic regime. These people did not truly understand liberty. They fought for many different reasons and the result at first was victory, which then led to further oppression.
The ironic thing about all of the revolts you mentioned and many others is that they resulted not in liberty, (at least not for any significant length of time,) but merely in a different form of tyranny. Even if the people of Vietnam or China were to rise up today and overthrow their respective communist rulers, the end result would most likely not be libertarian in nature. They would probably institute some form of democratic rule which would in short time result in a western-style welfare state with all of the heavy tax burdens and creeping socialism we see in the West.
Not only is poverty not a good explanation, as you explained, but wealth may also be a hindrance to the advancement of liberty. If people possess wealth they have more to lose. It seems logical that if people stand to lose much in order to revolt, they will be less likely to do so. In this sense, the poor may be more willing to revolt since they have so little to lose. What then determines why and when a people decide to revolt against their oppressors?
I think you were correct when you said: "People must find out and understand what they do not have, (or lost) then love it, value it, treasure it then they will demand it, and fight for it no matter they are poor or rich." A true understanding and love of the concept of liberty does produce an unyielding, unconquerable spirit, much like that present in the early American revolutionaries. Colonial America was already one of the freest places in the world, but the colonists were so endowed with the spirit of liberty that they could not tolerate even comparatively small forms of oppression. This was a unique and rare occurrence in the history of the world, and even there, the experiment they started has progressed rather quickly into the depths of tyranny. There is no guarantee that the original conditions present during the revolution can be duplicated even if a true understanding of liberty could be spread to the population at large, but hopefully it can.
The communists succeeded in mass revolutions against formidable odds, mainly due to their success at propagandizing and using guerilla tactics to undermine their enemies. Advocates of liberty could theoretically use these same tactics to try and undermine oppressive states. It yet remains to be seen if this can be effective. I think technology provides perhaps the best reason to be optimistic. The Internet, advanced encryption and worldwide communication capabilities are proving to be thorns in the side of the authoritarian state. Perhaps as a result we'll see the cause of liberty advance like never before. Who knows. The fight will continue to be interesting at the very least. I'm glad we’re both on the same side. Thanks for your correspondence.
Sincerely,
Aaron Singleton
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Aaron Singleton,
It's more than a pleasure to talk to you, my friend.
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts,
Yes, you are absolutely right, and that is exactly what I mean..
"However most of these uprisings were not the product of a love of liberty in the pure sense of the phrase. If I am not mistaken, the Vietnamese rebellion and subsequent defeat of the French at Dien Bien Phu was a nationalistic movement with the goal of freeing Vietnam from foreign rule. What we call the Vietnam war was an interesting example of a people fighting for freedom from foreign oppression, but doing so under the control of what would become an even more repressive domestic regime. These people did not truly understand liberty. They fought for many different reasons and the result at first was victory, which then led to further oppression."
-but because of by their own people, therefore they don’t feel "lost” or “humiliated”, because they don’t know or understand liberty, democracy.
The people of Vietnam fought the Chinese, the French etc.. NOT FOR LIBERTY; they did not know and understand LIBERTY… they just fought for their dignity in their Independence as a people. They are proud of, love and treasure being a distinguished Vietnamese people that's all. And that explains it my friend. Many people, including those who are now living UNDER and WITH LIBERY, DEMOCRACY… they DO NOT KNOW and FATHOM these CONCEPTS…Therefore, you see when Governments give they take...and when governments take they give.
That is what I am doing now for Vietnamese people. I am just giving them what they miss: do everything to inform them with the HOPE that they will understand the real dignity in liberty, then love liberty, love democracy and will STAND UP and DEMAND and FIGHT for it.
Take care
Sincerely,
NguyenKha PhamThanh Chuong
posted by Aaron Singleton at 1:47 PM
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